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Old 12/04/2017, 12:45 PM   #276
Subsea
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I am leaning towards this but on a nano scale. I've been following the threads and posts by you, PaulB (who lives a corals' throw from me) Kareem, Steve Tyree and TimFish. I find a multi-zone system very interesting.

I am over ambitious attempting to keep a mixed coral nano (29 gal) with a mandarin, so it's been interesting keeping everyone happy.

I am adding a 10 gallon sump under the tank seeking a no light semi-cryptic zone in the fuge section to compliment the CPR HOB 5 gallon sump on the back which is packed with cheato and pods with a bit of sand and rubble.

I hope to remove the skimmer as I am pulling very little skimmate as it stands now. Could be all the feather duster worms and aptasia I can't reach are beating the skimmer to the job.

MIKE,
I have enjoyed your contributions on those other threads. For certain, the more biodiversity the better. Bacteria and food webs have “Dynamic Equilibrium” and population densities correct for food supply changes. Self correcting biological control for free.
Natural systems are stable. They stand the test of time and they are easy to maintain. The reason that many do not have success with natural systems is because of impatience or toooooo much bioload. Why put so many fish in a tank so that if one piece of equipment fails, the tank crashes. Many people set themselves up for defeat by being short sided on their tank husbandry.

With respect to the things that compete with skimmer for nutrients, you can include coral.

PS. The


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Old 12/04/2017, 05:56 PM   #277
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The what???


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Old 12/04/2017, 07:19 PM   #278
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The what???

The PS is like Finnegan's Wake.


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Old 12/05/2017, 07:51 AM   #279
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Actually, “I got stoned and I missed it”.


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Old 12/05/2017, 11:58 AM   #280
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4333771/

This a interesting paper in part about a relationship between bacteria and the macro algae Ulva.

Jason

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Current Tank Info: 75 Gallon mixed reef. Fish are a powder blue tang and a lightning filefish. Smokeless with some macros growing in the sump.
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Old 12/05/2017, 01:49 PM   #281
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Yes, some macro ingest bacteria.

http://open.uct.ac.za/handle/11427/6175
I like this article that shows a co-culture of abalone and Ulva.


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Old 12/06/2017, 08:51 AM   #282
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Red Macro

Because of the demise of two Tangs in one week, I now have the opportunity to add some decorative macro to 75G Jaubert Plenum.

In the case of some of the Red Grapes that have photoadapted to higher light, I will bring them into this tank. I also will add some more Dragon’s Tongue, Halymenia digitata, which will be in a tumble culture in two days.


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Old 12/06/2017, 08:55 AM   #283
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Lights on.


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Old 12/07/2017, 03:01 PM   #284
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Yes, some macro ingest bacteria.

http://open.uct.ac.za/handle/11427/6175
I like this article that shows a co-culture of abalone and Ulva.
I like this article thanks for posting. In this study it seems 12-20x tank volume is the ideal turnover rate for this species and what I find interesting is that ammonium was removed at roughly the same rate, lights on and lights off.

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Current Tank Info: 75 Gallon mixed reef. Fish are a powder blue tang and a lightning filefish. Smokeless with some macros growing in the sump.
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Old 12/07/2017, 05:31 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by redlobstor View Post
I like this article thanks for posting. In this study it seems 12-20x tank volume is the ideal turnover rate for this species and what I find interesting is that ammonium was removed at roughly the same rate, lights on and lights off.

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Take note:- the 12 - 20 tank turn over rate was per day, not per hour.

Also, in regards to the algaes removal of NH4 during the day & night cycle, the difference in removal percentages between the two identified abalone farms; Danger Point and Jacobsbaai, indicates there may be other factors involved. Perhaps bacteria played a significant role?
In any case, a mechanism where-by algae takes up NH4 during darkness must be identified.


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Old 12/07/2017, 07:04 PM   #286
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Take note:- the 12 - 20 tank turn over rate was per day, not per hour.

Also, in regards to the algaes removal of NH4 during the day & night cycle, the difference in removal percentages between the two identified abalone farms; Danger Point and Jacobsbaai, indicates there may be other factors involved. Perhaps bacteria played a significant role?
In any case, a mechanism where-by algae takes up NH4 during darkness must be identified.
Thank you Twinfallz for the correction. Its what happens when one reads too fast.

Yes the percentages were different for each farm but they were consistent from day and night for each, if that makes sense.

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Current Tank Info: 75 Gallon mixed reef. Fish are a powder blue tang and a lightning filefish. Smokeless with some macros growing in the sump.
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Old 12/07/2017, 08:07 PM   #287
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Thank you Twinfallz for the correction. Its what happens when one reads too fast.

Yes the percentages were different for each farm but they were consistent from day and night for each, if that makes sense.

Jason

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I run a scrubber that grows a species of ulva, so i was interested in the observation that ammonium uptake occured during darkness.

Found this -
Ulva efficiently removed up to 85% of the ammonium from fish pond wastewater in darkness or light independently of temperature fluctuations. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02180927

&

"A preference for amrnonium over nitrate has also been observed in other subinerged macro-phytes, such as Ceratophyllum demersum (Toetz,1971) and Myriophyllum spicatum (Nichols &Keeney, 1976b). In C demersum, nitrate uptake has been found to correlate with light intensity,practically ceasing in the dark, while ammonium uptake was continuous and decreased only slight-ly at night (Toetz, 1971)"


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Old 12/07/2017, 10:58 PM   #288
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I spent like an hour reading this post... Very interesting stuff!


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Old 12/07/2017, 11:37 PM   #289
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With respect to Ulva, the fact that it can be grown in brackish water was of special interest to me. An indoor shrimp farm just south of San Antoine wanted to use Ulva to clean culture water after harvest. Because Gulf shrimp grow in brackish water, Ulva was the perfect macro for nutrient export.


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Old 12/08/2017, 08:26 AM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinfallz View Post
I run a scrubber that grows a species of ulva, so i was interested in the observation that ammonium uptake occured during darkness.

Found this -
Ulva efficiently removed up to 85% of the ammonium from fish pond wastewater in darkness or light independently of temperature fluctuations. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02180927

&

"A preference for amrnonium over nitrate has also been observed in other subinerged macro-phytes, such as Ceratophyllum demersum (Toetz,1971) and Myriophyllum spicatum (Nichols &Keeney, 1976b). In C demersum, nitrate uptake has been found to correlate with light intensity,practically ceasing in the dark, while ammonium uptake was continuous and decreased only slight-ly at night (Toetz, 1971)"
According to this article Ulva and possibly other macros uptake ammonium and not nitrate at night as nitrate uptake is dependent on light intensity.

This has me wondering if we should dose something like ammonium chloride at night to help speed up growth and in theory the algae would grow 24/7 and not just with lights on.

I also wonder how uptake of ammonium and the subsequent growth at night affects the ph of the system. I realize that ph is driven by photosynthesis and respiration of the macro, I know this is more complicated than this I'm just making a point, but considering we know nothing about the mechanisms at play who knows.

Jason

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Current Tank Info: 75 Gallon mixed reef. Fish are a powder blue tang and a lightning filefish. Smokeless with some macros growing in the sump.
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Old 12/08/2017, 09:20 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by redlobstor View Post
According to this article Ulva and possibly other macros uptake ammonium and not nitrate at night as nitrate uptake is dependent on light intensity.

This has me wondering if we should dose something like ammonium chloride at night to help speed up growth and in theory the algae would grow 24/7 and not just with lights on.

I also wonder how uptake of ammonium and the subsequent growth at night affects the ph of the system. I realize that ph is driven by photosynthesis and respiration of the macro, I know this is more complicated than this I'm just making a point, but considering we know nothing about the mechanisms at play who knows.

Jason

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Jason,
I would not say, we know nothing about the mechanisms at play. You have identified part of the chemistry at play. When you adjust pH in a marine system, the alkalinity of the water acts as a buffer to resist pH change. It is for that reason that aroggonite substrate is a cornerstone of natural filtration. So, instead of only biological filtration we have automatic buffering and trace mineral addition.


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Old 12/08/2017, 09:21 AM   #292
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I spent like an hour reading this post... Very interesting stuff!
Welcome aboard.


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Old 12/08/2017, 09:35 AM   #293
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Smokeless Sump

Quote:
Originally Posted by redlobstor View Post
According to this article Ulva and possibly other macros uptake ammonium and not nitrate at night as nitrate uptake is dependent on light intensity.

This has me wondering if we should dose something like ammonium chloride at night to help speed up growth and in theory the algae would grow 24/7 and not just with lights on.

I also wonder how uptake of ammonium and the subsequent growth at night affects the ph of the system. I realize that ph is driven by photosynthesis and respiration of the macro, I know this is more complicated than this I'm just making a point, but considering we know nothing about the mechanisms at play who knows.

Jason

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Jason,
What could you smoke in your sump? Tuna Fish.

I have a true joke from having worked in “Blue Water for 35 years. After a difficult 6 month shipyard overhaul, when we went back to the deep water, a welding foreman came out with ship. Being in tuna feeding grounds, we fished every evening on the bow of the ship. Many crew members went to this deck just to enjoy the view and fresh air. It became somewhat of a hangout after a 12 hour workday.

One evening, while fishing, I missed landing a yellow fin that I had fought for 30 minutes. My friend looked at me and said for 20 people to hear,

“You can “tune a piano”, but you can’t “tune a fish”.


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Last edited by Subsea; 12/08/2017 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 12/08/2017, 09:42 AM   #294
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What could you smoke in your sump? Tuna Fish.
I have a true joke from having worked in “Blue Water for 35 years. After a difficult 6 month shipyard overhaul, when we went back to the deep water, a welding foreman came out with ship. Being in tuna feeding grounds, we fished every evening on the bow of the ship. Many crew members went to this deck just to enjoy the view and fresh air. It became somewhat of a hangout after a 12 hour workday.

One evening, while fishing, I missed landing a yellow fin that I had fought for 30 minutes. My friend looked at me and said for 20 people to hear,

“You can “tune a piano”, but you can’t “tune a fish”.
Thanks for the joke

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Current Tank Info: 75 Gallon mixed reef. Fish are a powder blue tang and a lightning filefish. Smokeless with some macros growing in the sump.
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Old 12/08/2017, 11:36 AM   #295
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“You can “tune a piano”, but you can’t “tune a fish”.
Should have told you to "Roll With the Changes".


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Old 12/08/2017, 01:55 PM   #296
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I finally caught up on this thread...trying to catch up on too many at once, LOL. Great read. BTW, your tank looks great!


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Old 12/08/2017, 07:41 PM   #297
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I finally caught up on this thread...trying to catch up on too many at once, LOL. Great read. BTW, your tank looks great!
Thanks. This morning, I got up with the sun to check out my outside growout. Temperature all day yesterday was in the thirty’s with a low of 28 this morning.

With 900W of heat input water temperature of 400G was 60 degrees. I have got to cover tanks on these cold nights.


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