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Old 03/26/2018, 03:50 PM   #26
soulpatch
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given how you set up your rockwork I would be worried about shadowing and such with that middle portion. That is prime SPS area and you will likely have some lighting issues there without an additional fixture over it.


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Old 03/26/2018, 04:12 PM   #27
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As far as mechanical filtration......

Since I'm fishless, I took my socks off. I have a little more particulate in the water column, the increased growth and overall tank health far outweighs it IMO.

My acans always have their feeding tentacles out, as well as my scoly. I have pods by the thousands! It literally looks like bugs crawling all over my tank. Since I'm not catching them in the socks, they are everywhere. My sump over the course of the last month is no different then if I was. I wonder though if my reactor and ATS pumps are sucking it up since they are right under the overflow?


Anyways, I will no longer run any mechanical filtration other then for a few hours after doing weekly maintenance.


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Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht:

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Old 03/26/2018, 04:19 PM   #28
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As far as mechanical filtration......
Anyways, I will no longer run any mechanical filtration other then for a few hours after doing weekly maintenance.
That's how I've traditionally felt, for sure. The only hesitation I have now is that this sump is oh so pretty, and oh so clean, that I don't want to mess it up. I did follow Soul's recommendation and picked up a Home Depot "Bucket Head" vacuum this weekend, so I can use that to clean the sump. I'm also planning on running water changes to and from the basement, so I will always have a gravity assist when siphoning from the bottom of the sump, so may not need the vac too much, but we'll see.

Lots of choices. I do like the idea of no socks though. But ughhh clean sump...

I also still want to convert the red sea ATO reservoir into a drilled refugium growing tumbling chaeto or something. I'd even consider the ghetto media rector conversions, but I can probably do just as well, and have a much cleaner end result with a vinyl-covered ATO reservoir. I've always wanted a refugium!


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Old 03/26/2018, 04:27 PM   #29
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Is it large enough to be effective as a refugium?

I could never get chaeto to grow no matter what I used for light, whether it tumbled or sat there. My ATS on the other hand kicks a*s! it grows quite nicely. The only thing I've noticed with the ATS, for a few days after I clean the screen I get some small brown furry algae. It's only on my glass and pumps, and dies out a few days later once the ATS starts growing again, but something worth noting that I've noticed. That compartment is the perfect size for pump fed waterfall ATS.....


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Old 03/26/2018, 04:42 PM   #30
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Yeah, I was thinking of doing either refugium or ATS. Not sure which yet and not sure if the fuge would be effective in the smaller space. I have one working LED light that could power it currently, but I guess it isn't expensive to get more.

The brown algae is probably just the stuff that would take over the day your ATS is turned off. Like how my nano is now just a beautiful field of green bryopsis, blowing in the breeze.

I think the one coral that survived I'll keep, and dip in peroxide first. I don't think there is any algae on it (somehow). Everything else died though. Favias are pretty hardy!


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Old 03/28/2018, 03:19 AM   #31
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Hey, you got a thing !

Also, if you're dead set on a fuge or ATS, I vote Fuge as it's less maintenance. Especially as time is a luxury you haven't had.


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Old 03/28/2018, 05:50 AM   #32
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Hey, you got a thing !

Also, if you're dead set on a fuge or ATS, I vote Fuge as it's less maintenance. Especially as time is a luxury you haven't had.

Really you think so?

My experience, refugium not large enough to be effective, constantly turning the ball of chaeto, GHA out competed the chaeto, and no matter what light I used I could never get chaeto to grow where it was actually effective.

ATS on the other hand is setup and forget. Takes me 5 minutes during tank maintenance to clean the screen. Simply scrape off with an old credit card and put back in. Simple, and effective means of combating nutrients. Also an ATS takes up much less space to be effective compared to a refugium that needs to be large to be effective.

While a refugium can be used as other things(a place to banish unwanted livestock, bully livestock, etc), an ATS is much smaller and more effective at nutrient export.

Yes I'm a firm believer in using an ATS as a means of effective nutrient export.


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Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht:

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Old 03/28/2018, 05:58 AM   #33
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On an unrelated topic.....

Deleted, figured it out.


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Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht:

"He's just taking his lunch to work"

Last edited by homer1475; 03/28/2018 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 03/28/2018, 08:36 AM   #34
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Really you think so?

My experience, refugium not large enough to be effective, constantly turning the ball of chaeto, GHA out competed the chaeto, and no matter what light I used I could never get chaeto to grow where it was actually effective.

ATS on the other hand is setup and forget. Takes me 5 minutes during tank maintenance to clean the screen. Simply scrape off with an old credit card and put back in. Simple, and effective means of combating nutrients. Also an ATS takes up much less space to be effective compared to a refugium that needs to be large to be effective.

While a refugium can be used as other things(a place to banish unwanted livestock, bully livestock, etc), an ATS is much smaller and more effective at nutrient export.

Yes I'm a firm believer in using an ATS as a means of effective nutrient export.
You limited your fuge to chateo so not completly a fair comp. Other macro grows way faster and will quickly outcompete the GHA you have on the ATS. Not to mention the other side benefits. If one has the space I would typically always recomend a fuge over an ATS though an ATS is great for those short on space.

I dont agree that the fuge needs to be large to be effective either. It all depends on the stuff you have in it. I for instance have a mixture of ulva (which I feed to my tangs), culpera, some GHA, and some other macro that is reddish but not dragons breath. I pull it out by the handfuls every other week. I probably pulled 2 gallon bags worth this past weekend.

Then you have the side benefits of the pod population, detrious trapping, CUC breeding, and more all happening in there.


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Old 03/28/2018, 08:42 AM   #35
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You limited your fuge to chateo so not completly a fair comp. Other macro grows way faster and will quickly outcompete the GHA you have on the ATS. Not to mention the other side benefits. If one has the space I would typically always recomend a fuge over an ATS though an ATS is great for those short on space.

I dont agree that the fuge needs to be large to be effective either. It all depends on the stuff you have in it. I for instance have a mixture of ulva (which I feed to my tangs), culpera, some GHA, and some other macro that is reddish but not dragons breath. I pull it out by the handfuls every other week. I probably pulled 2 gallon bags worth this past weekend.

Then you have the side benefits of the pod population, detrious trapping, CUC breeding, and more all happening in there.

While I don't disagree with you on the benefits of a refugium(I still use mine, just not to grow macro for nutrient export), as far as a means of nutrient export, ATS wins all day every day. If you do any reading up on ATS's, you'll find quite a few people start out with macro in a refugium while starting an ATS. More often then not, the macro dies out as the ATS ramps up, telling me that an ATS is much more efficient at nutrient export.

You can also feed back what grows on the ATS, just like you do with whats growing in your refugium.

Plus Reef is limited on space in that setup where he wants to put the refugium. That tiny(2G I think) space would serve a better purpose as an ATS. IMO

Different strokes for different folk. Both get the job done.


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Old 03/28/2018, 08:49 AM   #36
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Read many Homer and a lot of people switch back to standard fuge like d2mini and even my friend up the street who has 302 scrubber. They all had issues with the levels on the tank rising and not staying as low as when the fuge was operating.

An ATS will be better then chateo but once you start adding in or replacing chateo with other macros that grow faster and export more I do not agree an ATS is better.


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Old 03/28/2018, 09:01 AM   #37
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And some people have switched back to under gravel filters lol. Like I said, different strokes for different folks.

I think this is one we will agree to disagree on.


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Old 03/28/2018, 09:20 AM   #38
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Hey, you got a thing !

Also, if you're dead set on a fuge or ATS, I vote Fuge as it's less maintenance. Especially as time is a luxury you haven't had.
I did get a thing! I'm very excited to get this tank going. Nervous about cycling and whatnot, algae, etc, but at least this is a nice big upgrade, and I can have tangs, and think maintenance will generally be easier, unless I get AEFW. Then it will be harder.

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I think this is one we will agree to disagree on.
Honestly I think you're both right, and I think either solution can and does work well. I agree with homer on the grounds that when I had GHA growing in my cube in the middle chamber, I credit that with a lot of the success I had in the early stages of my nano, and it was also still filled with pods and other interesting lifeforms. I agree with soul in that a fully working fuge has the benefits of an ATS plus potential additional benefits like temporary livestock holding. I think both systems fill up with pods and are breeding grounds for pods and some CUC.

Speaking of which, at some point I have to get on with a clean up crew. I'm actually looking forward to getting some algae in the big tank though. I hesitate to put the angel in because he'll be going from a tank filled with big green algae (he is having a field day, and is the fattest I've ever seen him. he looks huge, because he just picks at the green algae all day) to an empty tank.

I think I should probably ghost feed a little more until I start seeing some ammonia and ultimately algae. I have fed two or three times, I think I saw the seachem ammonia badge change color indicating a wave of ammonia, but it was gone quickly, and even with the lights on and high flow, I haven't seen any indication of algae anywhere.

I'm also kind of annoyed that despite doing two acid washes, watching the rock bubble, rinsing out tons of brown slime from the containers, I'm still seeing some "crap" on the rocks that are in the tank. Some of the little... dendrites of detritus (that's what they look like, I know they're not dendrites) are still on some parts of the rock, and the greenish skeletons of some thick fuzzy (and stiff/bristley) algae are on the rocks as well. I hope it doesn't grow in, but I thought the acid would definitely dissolve all of these. I didn't bleach in addition, since I thought the acid would be sufficient.

We'll just have to see how the tank fills in!


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Old 03/28/2018, 09:30 AM   #39
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why not just grab some ammonia at ace hardware and dose the tank up to the level of 2ppm ammonia. You will have it cycled and no need to guess on the amount of ghost feeding needed to get your ammonia up. Nothing is in the tank so cycle it right and your fish can go in within the next week most likely as the cycle is fairly fast.


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Old 03/28/2018, 09:37 AM   #40
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Not a bad idea.

Honestly, I was going to ghost feed a little (which I've done), watch ammonia (which I've done and seen), and then move the fishes over. I'm pretty sure the small angel and 2 clowns won't spike the ammonia much if at all, even in a completely uncycled tank. This tank has had both Dr. Tims one and only (meh) and the bagged wet livesand to start it, as well as 2 marinepure blocks, and a skimmer. So I think realistically the tank should be good to go for those 3 small fishes.

When I had to emergency move them to a half-filled 5g bucket, ammonia was a concern. I imagine that with ~110 gallons of water volume plus all of the filtration steps, there shouldn't be much concern about ammonia as long as I don't go too crazy about feeding them right away.

The ammonia isn't a bad idea though, just to test the system fully.


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Old 03/28/2018, 09:40 AM   #41
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I mean you dose up the tank with ammonia and it creates a ton of bacteria and sets the tqnk up for success. If your stock stays minimal then some will die up as the tank stabilizes to need but at least you would have more then needed and not need to have emergency water changes or such as livestock goes in.

Plus CUC can be much more fickel with ammonia so while you fish might be fine you could run into issues with the CUC you just spent money on....


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Old 03/28/2018, 09:44 AM   #42
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+1 Ammonia and no guesses(See we all agree sometimes).

When I was trying to cycle my QT tank, Dr Tim's did nothing(tank had 2ppm for 6 days before I added biospira). IO Biospira cycled it in 3 days. On the third day I dosed up to 3ppm ammonia and it cleared in about 12 hours.


The pukani I pulled out that I am using some now I bleached for 5 days, then soaked in RO/DI and prime for another week, was super clean.

I was going to acid wash the rest this summer, but maybe I'll just bleach it instead.


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Old 03/28/2018, 05:50 PM   #43
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Well I'm glad you not only got an upgrade, and ended up with a surprise upgrade to boot!

Yet again, I agree with @homer and @soulpatch (Small shout out to you two gents -- I very rarely agree with almost everything people say, but both of you have very sage advice and never biased.. Both of those qualities are as rare as it gets in this hobby). ammonia is the way to go. But I'll also blend up a tiny bit of shrimp or frozen as well. It's overkill, but it won't hurt so why not. But again, Ammonia is instant and a safe bet. Anything else is just extra.

As for lights, I think a third radion, with all radions turned front to back will give you the coverage you want. 3 seems to be the magic number on anything over 36" -- WWC runs a 290g with 3 Radions. And they run a 900g with 5-6 radions. Some people with huge well grown in colonies would advise you to get 4 eventually.

You could also get one of the hybrid fixtures to add 4 T5 bulbs. They're well priced all things considered, and if you desperately feel the need for even more LED, you could put a used XR15 in the middle and that should be more than enough for you.




EDIT: Oh yeah!! -- The diffusers are a GAME CHANGER. I can't recommend them enough. They significantly help the tank with shadowing and evenly distributing par. I know... $130 for upgrades on $1600 worth of lights... But it's really worth it.

@Reef -- I remember talking a lot with you about LED vs T5 and our experiences. With the G3's, I was all about T5's, I saw an instant improvement in my corals when adding T5, and a bigger improvement once going full ATI. I wouldn't have ever gotten a G4 but I won it in a raffle... And the G4 is so vastly improved over the G3, I have to admit it now outperforms T5 in growth and color In my personal experience.

I had a buddy who picked up a pair to run WITH his 6x48 T5 fixture, I convinced him to pickup a 3rd Radion, ditch the ATI, and get the diffuser for all three radions -- He hates to admit, his corals never looked better. Growth and color.

Didn't seem like it to a lot of people when they dropped, but the G4 is a gigantic upgrade over the G3, because of new LED diodes, wider spectrum, and HEI optics. So no matter what you do -- You should be very happy with your G4's.



Last edited by Rakie; 03/28/2018 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 03/28/2018, 09:22 PM   #44
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EDIT: Oh yeah!! -- The diffusers are a GAME CHANGER. I can't recommend them enough. They significantly help the tank with shadowing and evenly distributing par. I know... $130 for upgrades on $1600 worth of lights... But it's really worth it.

@Reef -- I remember talking a lot with you about LED vs T5 and our experiences. With the G3's, I was all about T5's, I saw an instant improvement in my corals when adding T5, and a bigger improvement once going full ATI. I wouldn't have ever gotten a G4 but I won it in a raffle... And the G4 is so vastly improved over the G3, I have to admit it now outperforms T5 in growth and color In my personal experience.
I've heard similar stories about the G4 vs. everything else. Actually one of the reasons I finally decided to go for the G4 Pro vs. T5 hybrids was because jackson6745, who has a spectacular 115g cube, and is somewhat of a reefcentral legend (and really nice guy who I've met a few times in person since he's local), and is a huge advocate for T5 and MH ONLY, had a nice conversation with me over PM. He said that he sees that the G4 finally is a game changer, and he'll be moving to them with his next tank, because he's seen the light, and finally there are LEDs that are comparable to T5 and/or MH. And that means a lot, because I know how much he loves his 10x24" T5 fixture...

Weren't you going big on T5s Rakie? That's a sweet raffle prize, and I'm glad you're enjoying it. You deserve a nice break after living through AEFW treatment.

Also, I need to look into the diffusers eventually. I think my wife would kill me if I bought diffuses after buying everything else though, particularly the $1600 lights + arms.


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Old 03/28/2018, 10:02 PM   #45
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I was using T5 for a year, around xmas I won the Radion, switched out my ATI for my Radion in January and it's been a huge improvement. I still feel a single XR30 G4 Pro leaves a little too much shadowing for my taste.

The diffusers are such a big upgrade it's almost a G5 radion within itself.. People hate on it because it's a flimsy piece of plastic -- But if it came standard on the Radion everyone would love it.. It's really that good.


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Old 04/02/2018, 08:18 PM   #46
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FIIINE, I dosed ammonia. I ordered the ammonia clear from Amazon. I dosed the tank up to 2ppm (though the calculators said it should be at 1ppm from my dosing; it definitely spiked to 2ppm). That was Saturday morning. Sunday morning and night it was 1PPM, and tonight it is 0.5PPM. Nitrates were actually high right after dosing (10-15PPM), then immediately dropped to 0ppm, and have stayed flat even with ammonia coming down. I'm always skeptical, but that's what's supposed to happen with the marinepure. Skimmer doesn't notice a difference, and I've been keeping on top of topoff.

I also couldn't resist picking up some fishes while at the LFS this weekend returning unused rock. So for the first time ever, I'm fully quarantining fishes. Doing TTM in the basement right now (IT'S SO NICE HAVING SPACE, I FEEL LIKE A HUMAN AGAIN). The fishes are pretty lethargic, or still in hiding, which isn't great, but I'm sure it takes a few days to adjust to the new surroundings.

I haven't posted pics in a while, and everyone loves the pics, so:


Quarantine setup is black 27g home depot buckets, on top of a lid (to keep it insulated from the cold floor), with a 100w heater (overkill, I know; next swap and bleaching I'll use the 50w heater that is in the cube right now). and I just added clear lids tonight. I was using the yellow lids, thinking that with an overhead light on above the QT during the day it would look like daylight and the fishes would be active, but when I got home they were mostly asleep still, so tonight I found clear lids and put that over the tank.

TTM protocol suggests moving them Wednesday night at 10PMish, so that's my plan. Tomorrow going to a Mets game! So 12 days total, hopefully they survive. I'm not a big fan of QT or TTM, but I know that as a grown-*** man, sometimes you have to do what you have to do.




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Old 04/02/2018, 08:26 PM   #47
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I spot a leopard !


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Old 04/02/2018, 08:55 PM   #48
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Indeed you do. The rest is a mystery (not wrasse). I'm hoping they make it through QT... They're pretty ****ed off I think one was eating when I walked away after feeding (he came out of hiding when food was in). The others are just sitting around on the bottom, not dead, but not quite alive. I'll see how they are tomorrow night, and then I'll get the prazipro in there too at the same time, just so they spend their 24 hours before the next TTM move (or maybe it's better to get them feeding comfortably and Turn 2 will be Prazi since they'll take a day or two to eat from the stress anyway?

QT is hard and very uncertain. A lot of places online say not to even QT leopard wrasses in particular.


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Old 04/03/2018, 12:12 AM   #49
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Prazi can suppress appetite. So I would get them eating first and foremost before any treatments unless they look absolutely dire.

Whenever I get new fish I just repeat this phrase like a mantra; "Calories into fish". For the first week or two, nothing else matters, unless they are physically and visually dying in real time from some grievous injury/sickness.


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Old 04/03/2018, 04:22 AM   #50
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I would not prazi the leopard, they do not take to it very well. If you read the leopard wrasse primer in the reef fishes section, some had success with prazi, but most had them die in QT after adding prazi.

My fisrt leopard I used prazi and she died minutes after putting her in the bucket with prazi. My second leopard did fine in TTM, and I did a FW did for the flukes. She lived 2 years before ich wiped out my entire fish population.


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