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Old 01/19/2018, 05:26 PM   #76
Vinny Kreyling
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Bubble Algae I can understand being the hard shell.
Would popping them be better?


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Old 01/19/2018, 07:14 PM   #77
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Daring, impatient, stupid are all ways to describe how I went about this. I will say I was "prepared" and maybe you can add on some of the others.
I've raised my skimmer as you suggested reefkeeper64 and say thank you as I was unaware that Amquel had the effect of limiting o2. Always learning!
My ammonia seems to be on the decline as I tested at 1:00 pm today and the color is somewhere between 0 and .25ppm. Pic attached.
I'm going to continue monitoring ammonia and I have a 50 Gallon batch of fresh saltwater ready to go for a water change if needed.
Thank you again reefkeeper64. Hopefully there won't be a next time but if there is I will head your advice and certainly take it a little slower.
So far all is looking good.
From the picture I'd say your ammonia level looks to be very much on the safe side. I've seen much darker API results with Amquel in the mix and all of the fish were fine. We all are always learning so its all good.

More advice that you didn't ask for...
Keep the skimmer skimming wet. I mean really wet. This will get the dead stuff out faster.
Keep a ton of flow going in your display tank. If you need to, buy a spare powerhead. Corals grow faster with better flow anyways so you'll be glad you have it in the long run. Oxygenation is key.
If you see any dead bristle worms or dead other stuff, remove them with a net.
If your water is still cloudy, put that 50 gallon batch of water to use right away. Start with no more than a 20% water change per day. You don't want to make too many changes too fast but smaller water changes per day are healthy.
Even with all of the above, your tank will continue to be medicated for weeks to come. As soon as the ammonia concerns are completely put to rest, you can kick back and enjoy your vermetid free tank!


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Old 01/20/2018, 11:10 AM   #78
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From the picture I'd say your ammonia level looks to be very much on the safe side. I've seen much darker API results with Amquel in the mix and all of the fish were fine. We all are always learning so its all good.

More advice that you didn't ask for...
Keep the skimmer skimming wet. I mean really wet. This will get the dead stuff out faster.
Keep a ton of flow going in your display tank. If you need to, buy a spare powerhead. Corals grow faster with better flow anyways so you'll be glad you have it in the long run. Oxygenation is key.
If you see any dead bristle worms or dead other stuff, remove them with a net.
If your water is still cloudy, put that 50 gallon batch of water to use right away. Start with no more than a 20% water change per day. You don't want to make too many changes too fast but smaller water changes per day are healthy.
Even with all of the above, your tank will continue to be medicated for weeks to come. As soon as the ammonia concerns are completely put to rest, you can kick back and enjoy your vermetid free tank!
Whether I ask for advice or not it is always welcome. Thanks for just putting it out there. Flow thankfully is not an issue in my tank or sump. Plenty of powerheads to go around. Skimmer is skimming away. Did a water change today and still everything is looking good. I will do another ammonia test later and go from there.
Thank you.


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Old 01/24/2018, 10:53 PM   #79
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2 weeks in, did another dose of 40mg/gal

Sponge - dead
Vermatids - dead
Flatworms - dead
Aptasia - dead
Coralline algae - severely impacted
Bristle worms - severely impacted
Amphipods - large population
Bubble algae - fine

Will post updates as I have them.


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Old 01/25/2018, 03:09 AM   #80
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Do you have any progression pictures to share?


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Old 02/01/2018, 05:21 PM   #81
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I still would like to continue discussing possible treatment options that don't require removing all your coral from the tank. For me, this is not possible. First of all, due to corals being encrusted all over the rock, and second of all, due to vermetids being encrusted all over the corals.

I have been dosing ground CaCO3 several times a week without results (this is supposed to work the same as Coral Snow and remove particulates from the water column. I have also been feeding less and only feeding big particles (I used to feed lots of small foods) in an effort to starve them out. That doesnt seem to be working particularly well either... I think I'm seeing an overall decrease in biodiversity (i.e. I'm starving everyone out) and the diamond gobies seem to stir up a never-ending supply of detritus for them to feed on (I am heavily stocked with fish).

I'm wondering if going the route of poisoned food could be promising. Maybe using seachem Focus to bind a particular medication/chemical to a fine particulate food, and then broadcast feeding 1-2x daily. They will consume more than anything else so even something that would otherwise damage other inverts would be selectively consumed by them. Or possibly super ich shield pellets (which contain CP) ground into a powder?


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Old 02/02/2018, 10:48 AM   #82
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I still would like to continue discussing possible treatment options that don't require removing all your coral from the tank. For me, this is not possible. First of all, due to corals being encrusted all over the rock, and second of all, due to vermetids being encrusted all over the corals.

I have been dosing ground CaCO3 several times a week without results (this is supposed to work the same as Coral Snow and remove particulates from the water column. I have also been feeding less and only feeding big particles (I used to feed lots of small foods) in an effort to starve them out. That doesnt seem to be working particularly well either... I think I'm seeing an overall decrease in biodiversity (i.e. I'm starving everyone out) and the diamond gobies seem to stir up a never-ending supply of detritus for them to feed on (I am heavily stocked with fish).

I'm wondering if going the route of poisoned food could be promising. Maybe using seachem Focus to bind a particular medication/chemical to a fine particulate food, and then broadcast feeding 1-2x daily. They will consume more than anything else so even something that would otherwise damage other inverts would be selectively consumed by them. Or possibly super ich shield pellets (which contain CP) ground into a powder?
I'd be cautious about anything that had CP if you had corals in the system. The medication would have to be ok for the corals to consume as well. Its a tricky subject.

I still have yet to try fenbendazole at the very high dosages that I suspect were actually used in the hydroids thread over on the other forum. Might be worth a try for anyone else willing. I don't have the time or desire right now, maybe in a few weeks when wrestling season is over and I have my free time back.


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Old 02/02/2018, 11:38 AM   #83
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You can actually buy Ick Shield in powder form but I wouldn’t dose that in a stocked reef tank. You’d have to first remove all your animals with the exception of fish. Looks like you need a second tank to hold your corals. At least the ones that have no snails. It will be an easy reset and you will have a snail free tank when finished.




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Old 02/02/2018, 11:42 AM   #84
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You can actually buy Ick Shield in powder form but I wouldn’t dose that in a stocked reef tank. You’d have to first remove all your animals with the exception of fish. Looks like you need a second tank to hold your corals. At least the ones that have no snails. It will be an easy reset and you will have a snail free tank when finished.

Only problem is its very difficult to keep them out of reinfesting your tank from frags depending on what type of coral you have. Ask me how I know.

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Old 02/02/2018, 12:01 PM   #85
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I feel like you missed basically everything in my post. I know you can buy Ich Shield powder (I have some), and I know you can't broadcast dose it into a reef tank without killing everything but fish. My suggestion is to use Seachem Focus to bind the medication to food, and then feed the poison food to the vermetids. If any CP leached into the water it would likely be a much smaller dose than the typical broadcast dose (below therapeutic levels), and you could run a bunch of carbon to remove anything that made it into the water column. I also specifically mentioned why removing all corals to a holding tank is not a realistic option for me.

If you were to dose the tank with poison food, any invertebrates that consumed the food could be impacted depending on the poison/medication used. However, at least in my tank, if I broadcast feed the tank with a small food, somewhere between the size of a newly hatched and adult brine shrimp, I feel like most of it would get consumed by the vermetids. I'm sure some would get consumed by corals, but given large healthy colonies and only consuming a few pieces that happen to blow into them, I think they might suffer some irritation but ultimately survive. The vermetids are a lot more efficient at catching particles out of the water column than anything else I've got in my tank.

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You can actually buy Ick Shield in powder form but I wouldn’t dose that in a stocked reef tank. You’d have to first remove all your animals with the exception of fish. Looks like you need a second tank to hold your corals. At least the ones that have no snails. It will be an easy reset and you will have a snail free tank when finished.




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Old 02/03/2018, 05:35 AM   #86
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Its worthy of a trial if you have some corals you are willing to risk. My sps are still small so I really can't run the trial without taking losses. I could spare a Duncan head or two. I would start with trying the cp infuswd food and vermetid infested rock in a separate system and see how effective it is and at what levels.

The other concern I have is if they have to consume it to be killed, it might not be 100% effective. Could be a really good control strategy if not though. Broadcast feed once every couple of months to really keep their nunbers down to a few unseen...

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Old 02/05/2018, 04:19 PM   #87
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Old 02/06/2018, 10:22 PM   #88
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How are the vermetid snails doing?


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Old 02/06/2018, 11:07 PM   #89
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Update:
My tank is free of them as I can see. Once my tank started showing no ammonia again I ran carbon and started a couple of larger water changes. This was at about 9 -10 days after initial treatment. I put a sacrificial monti frag in after about 3 days of running carbon. 3 days after that i noticed no I'll affects so I started adding the rest of my frags. All frags have been returned to the DT and all are doing great. I've continued to run carbon throughout just to be safe.

Once water changes started and carbon was added algae came back fast. Lots of nutrients available now. Just seems to be a green film type. Thankfully no hair algae yet. I've yet to add any snails back as I've given all a scrub with a wire brush and have them in quarantine to make sure there is no more vermetid growth. My two maxima clams have been scrubbed and await their return to the DT as well.

So far so good. Hopefully things continue on the right track.


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Old 02/07/2018, 01:38 AM   #90
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Once water changes started and carbon was added algae came back fast. Lots of nutrients available now. Just seems to be a green film type. Thankfully no hair algae yet. I've yet to add any snails back as I've given all a scrub with a wire brush and have them in quarantine to make sure there is no more vermetid growth. My two maxima clams have been scrubbed and await their return to the DT as well.

So far so good. Hopefully things continue on the right track.
I'm still running full strength CP. I was planning on moving my cross hatch triggers and queen back in once I get water quality up. Will likely start working on that sometime this weekend.

Looks like it didn't decimate my pod population or bubble algae. A bit of corraline is still left. Everything else is really clean looking. Vermetids are certainly dead.

I almost messed up though, I went to change the media in my carbon reactor and while I had the feed hose running in the sump I never re-installed the empty reactor back in the sump. Not thinking too much of it I cleaned it up real well and got ready to fill it. Looked down the down tube and sure enough, a vermetid was in there... Broke him off and tossed the reactor back on the system without carbon. So make sure all equipment you are using is submerged, running (even with no media), or soaked in vinegar for a while.

Anyways, I ran a phosphate test and it is above the range of the Hanna 736 ULR. I was at .03ppm before this and now it is well above .6ppm. I'll work out a more accurate test but one reason algae may come back with a ferocity is if you pull the chloroquine component out and leave the phosphate in the water it's ripe for an algae bloom.

I'm planning a 400gal water change this weekend and will let you guys know where I stand after that.

Also... I will post some before and after shots once I turn my lights back on.


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Old 02/07/2018, 05:44 AM   #91
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I'm still running full strength CP. I was planning on moving my cross hatch triggers and queen back in once I get water quality up. Will likely start working on that sometime this weekend.

Looks like it didn't decimate my pod population or bubble algae. A bit of corraline is still left. Everything else is really clean looking. Vermetids are certainly dead.

I almost messed up though, I went to change the media in my carbon reactor and while I had the feed hose running in the sump I never re-installed the empty reactor back in the sump. Not thinking too much of it I cleaned it up real well and got ready to fill it. Looked down the down tube and sure enough, a vermetid was in there... Broke him off and tossed the reactor back on the system without carbon. So make sure all equipment you are using is submerged, running (even with no media), or soaked in vinegar for a while.

Anyways, I ran a phosphate test and it is above the range of the Hanna 736 ULR. I was at .03ppm before this and now it is well above .6ppm. I'll work out a more accurate test but one reason algae may come back with a ferocity is if you pull the chloroquine component out and leave the phosphate in the water it's ripe for an algae bloom.

I'm planning a 400gal water change this weekend and will let you guys know where I stand after that.

Also... I will post some before and after shots once I turn my lights back on.
Dilute your sample 50:50 with ro water, then run your Hanna test. Not sure how chemistry minded you are but ive got a few ideas for how to do it with a fair amount of accuracy if you need some.

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Old 02/07/2018, 08:07 AM   #92
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Anyways, I ran a phosphate test and it is above the range of the Hanna 736 ULR. I was at .03ppm before this and now it is well above .6ppm. I'll work out a more accurate test but one reason algae may come back with a ferocity is if you pull the chloroquine component out and leave the phosphate in the water it's ripe for an algae bloom.
Good call on the phosphate being left behind. Mine was a 1.6 using my Hanna meter (Not checker) right after putting in carbon and doing a couple of water changes. It's now down to .08. No3 has been close to undetectable using Salifert. I think it's being used up as fast as it being produced.
As for the P04 and algae I may run some gfo to get it down a little. Just don't want to strip my water of it and have problems with corals. For now I'm going to let it run its course unless it gets real bad.


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Old 02/07/2018, 09:36 AM   #93
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tkeracer619,
Are you up for popping bubbles or just letting them be?


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Old 02/07/2018, 08:17 PM   #94
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I just left them be. Surely even if I pop the ones I can see they'll show back up. I like to keep a foxface and they love bubble algae. I've had success with vibrant but id need gallons. I may try to remove and pop what I can tonight.


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Old 02/08/2018, 02:03 AM   #95
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Dilute your sample 50:50 with ro water, then run your Hanna test. Not sure how chemistry minded you are but ive got a few ideas for how to do it with a fair amount of accuracy if you need some.

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I've run diluted samples many times, this hanna 736 checker has probably run through close to 500 tests.

The sample from last night was so blue I diluted my test tonight 10:1. It read 131...

131x3.066/100= 4.016ppm po4

I snagged a 2 liter jug of Phosguard a couple days ago for a few dollars from a guy breaking down a tank. I prefer GFO but I'll burn this stuff since it is more aggressive and was essentially free. Though, at current levels and absorption rates of .87mg/g it would take 20 liters of Phosguard to remove all the phosphate. I'm hoping not much has bound to the rock yet and that most of what I am testing resides in the water...

My RODI is going full tilt so I should have water ready to do a 400gal water change by Friday night. I'm not going to burn any media until that is done.

I may need to setup my Lanthinum Chloride Reactor to pull this much phosphate out of the water.


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Old 02/08/2018, 12:28 PM   #96
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I've run diluted samples many times, this hanna 736 checker has probably run through close to 500 tests.

The sample from last night was so blue I diluted my test tonight 10:1. It read 131...

131x3.066/100= 4.016ppm po4

I snagged a 2 liter jug of Phosguard a couple days ago for a few dollars from a guy breaking down a tank. I prefer GFO but I'll burn this stuff since it is more aggressive and was essentially free. Though, at current levels and absorption rates of .87mg/g it would take 20 liters of Phosguard to remove all the phosphate. I'm hoping not much has bound to the rock yet and that most of what I am testing resides in the water...

My RODI is going full tilt so I should have water ready to do a 400gal water change by Friday night. I'm not going to burn any media until that is done.

I may need to setup my Lanthinum Chloride Reactor to pull this much phosphate out of the water.
I am not a big fan of water changes to remove nutrients. I’ve seen countless threads where a hobbiest would change lots of water, sometimes 60%, only to see PO4 only go down a bit, like 20% in the 60% example. You have a really big tank. Are you in a rush? Lots of flow for cheato, iron citrate, 10 micron socks, nitrate and carbon can sink your PO4 in an affordable manner. Just a thought...


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Old 02/08/2018, 12:33 PM   #97
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I am not a big fan of water changes to remove nutrients. I’ve seen countless threads where a hobbiest would change lots of water, sometimes 60%, only to see PO4 only go down a bit, like 20% in the 60% example. You have a really big tank. Are you in a rush? Lots of flow for cheato, iron citrate, 10 micron socks, nitrate and carbon can sink your PO4 in an affordable manner. Just a thought...
This is a different scenario. Those other threads are where people have had nutrients build up over time, and they have a chronic issue. Usually have a pretty large nutrient sink.

In this case, phosphate was essentially dosed, so a water change will be a lot more effective at reducing levels.

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Old 02/08/2018, 12:39 PM   #98
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Oh yea, I am fully aware of the phosphate relationship in a reef tank. My hope is it hasn't bound to that concentration yet. I'm more interested in a large water change for overall water quality. The tank has had water in it for a long time without many water changes. The first fish additions are going to be a mated pair of crosshatches and my queen angel. I want the best water I can get for them and while not in a hurry they are starting to get ****ed off at their home. The crosshatches have been in a 50gal QT for over 6 months due to disease issues in the display. I have a real hard time balancing nutrients in their tank and getting them proper food.

I have a really snazzy LaCl reactor that will pull phosphate out easily if it comes to that. I'm not really sure how much of this phosphate is still associated with the CP though so I won't be focused on the phosphate until I do the change and run carbon/gfo for a few days. Once I see where I am then I will think more seriously about it. Right now I am more curious then anything how a water change handles the phosphate in this scenario given I was at .03ppm po4 30 days ago. That and water quality.


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Old 02/08/2018, 11:05 PM   #99
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Pisanoal, very good point. tkeracer619, I will watch and learn. Looking forward to more updates!


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Old 02/12/2018, 01:18 AM   #100
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Water Changed, Fish In Tank.

Ok so here is what I have found so far after doing a 400 gallon water change. All tests were done twice to ensure accurate numbers.

The treated water measured 4,016ppm PO4.

5 hours after the water change the tank measured 1.027ppm PO4. A media reactor was placed in service after this test. It's a vertex UF20 and is 20x4" in size. I filled it to the top with fine particle lignite carbon from BRS and 250ml of phosguard.

24 hours after the water change I measured the tank at 1.180ppm PO4. I refreshed the media reactor with carbon, the Phosguard was saturated, and since the phosphates are rising even with a binding media I'm currently preparing my Lanthinum Chloride media reactor to use instead. I will bring it online sometime early this week. I'll save any phosphate binding media to polish the tank water once the reactor has run its course.


I have a hunch the calcium carbonate has bound a fair amount of phosphates from the medication. I've done enough testing of phosphates in our aquariums that I feel comfortable saying this could be a problematic level of phosphate to remove on larger systems with GFO alone. Certainly you could but it is going to cost a lot.

I also think it is safe to say that doing as large of a water change to remove phosphates and medication is important, especially on larger tanks. It appears a large amount of phosphate is easily removed via a water change.

The LaCl Reactor I will be using is one I designed to be used on this tank to deal with any bound phosphates in the sand, however, I never needed it. It has been successfully tested on a very large vat of live rock that was loaded with phosphates. The main components are a dual head Masterflex Pump, a 20BB filter housing, and a Pentek 5micron pleated 20bb sediment filter. One pump head has a large diameter peristaltic tube while the other has a very small diameter tube. The larger tube pulls water through the reactor, the small tube pushes a diluted Lanthinum Chloride mixture into the reaction chamber at a set mixing rate. Precipitation occurs and then the mixture flows into the 20BB housing where it is trapped. Output water is then returned to the tank through a 1 micron filter sock. This setup allows me to control the rate at which phosphate is removed from the system without any precipitate making it back into the system and proved very effective on the phosphate saturated rock. Due to the low flow rates, large surface area in the sediment filter, and high pressure capabilities of the masterflex this reactor is able to run for several months without any maintenance. You can see the amount of precipitates captured in the photo after months of runtime. The entire filter has large amounts of precipitate as well as about a half of an inch of sediment on the bottom of the housing. I'm going to make one modification this go around and add a mixing chamber prior to the filter housing in an effort to extend the life of the filter. The filter is washable and has been soaked in vinegar ready to be used again.



I added 3 fish back to the display today. The water was clear and tested free of ammonia and nitrites. Nitrates were around 1ppm.


__________________
Hobby Experience: 9200ish gallons, 26 skimmers, and a handful of Kent Scrapers.
Current Tank:
Vortech Powered 600G SPS Tank w/ 100gal frag tank & 100g Sump. RK2-RK10 Skimmer. ReefAngel. Radium 20k.
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